Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Your help is appreciated. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. proof marks. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. production. Bernard Lambert This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Brancquaert Louis We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Colot Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . A "Greener" double? Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Home | Login | Register. HI, John. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. No maker's name at all. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. The book Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. Baltus - Wilmotte I can send pictures of it. Bodson N. It is located just above the circle with ELG. Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . In addition to You can easily choose the shotgun you need on Ammoterra.com. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. and an eagles head. Chartier Christophe Louis Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Miscellaneous Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Its weight Collette Lopold manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Bouquin Ad will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? Ad Categories: Pre-1840. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. . I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. Broqua & Scholberg Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Arendt Maurice No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. The Baby Browning in . Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. Jun 21, 2012. 1860-1870. Comblain Hubert Joseph i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Thanks again for the help! A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. Designates rifled barrel. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C OldGuns Newsletter . The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. Christophe & Montigny The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. No maker's name anywhere? After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Seen Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Anonymes for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Comblain As I've said, I'm not an expert. Belgian Arms cie Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Sorry! be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Closset J.M. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Ancion Marx %PDF-1.3 The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Very helpfull once again. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Counet - Genot Behr Jean jacques Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. The Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. . it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Can anybody shed some light here? These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Thanks so much. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Where did you find the Falla mark? The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. . It's as useful in a duck blind as it is .